I wanted to pick up on Jeff's earlier question today about what we're leaving out in our discussion of procedural rhetoric and gaming. Something I see that we're not looking at is the way that procedure (or policy, which is procedure reinterpreted) establishes rules, much like the legal system uses procedures to create and enforce rules. These procedures are institutional creations and they persuade us to act in a certain manner. As such, these procedures act rhetorically. When thinking about gaming, are we considering the ways that the rules programmed into the game persuade us to act in a particular manner? I'm not even sure that is the question I want to ask, so let me try it in a different way. Procedures place limitations on our actions. We conform our behavior to procedures/policies. In terms of pedagogy, how do we address dealing with limitations that result from procedure/policy. Put another way, do we address institutional limitations in gaming? Usually, and by usually I mean in our class discussions, when we talk about gaming it's typically described in ways that capture its ability to open up new options to students and getting them to expand their horizons (that is a poor word choice, but I'm not sure what to put there) through gaming. But, should there also be a concurrent discussion of the ways that games limit or shut down options. Now, I don't mean to suggest that we discuss these limitations in negative terms, but rather should we discuss the ways that games potentially can manipulate action? I hate using manipulate b/c it has such a negative connotation, but not all action is free in gaming. Similarly, in life, not all action is free b/c we have to conform to certain procedures/policies in order to avoid suffering the potential consequences, such as serving a little jail time. I guess what I'm trying to get at is how can we teach students to recognize the persuasive impact of procedure and more importantly how to work rhetorically against this procedure when necessary? Does gaming offer pedagogical opportunities for getting at this notion of rhetorically working against and/or with procedure? Or, would this only come out through having students create their own games--where they create their own procedures that persuade people to behave in certain manners?